Team System Chat – Dec. 2, 2004
The Team System group held two chats recently on MSDN. This is a synapsis of the chat held on Dec. 2. (You can find the synapsis of the Dec. 1 chat here). Look for future Team System chat announcements here.
Q: How can we use Team System to support the people who write documentation on a project (end-user)?
A: In this release, the extent for which we support documentation projects is limited to the use of Team Foundation Version Control and the Project Portal. There are no documentation authoring features in this release.
Q: Are the unit testing features in VSTS comparable to current versions of NUnit and NUnitForms?
A: Our unit testing features provide the ability to test pieces of your code much as NUnit and other unit test frameworks do. In addition, we provide great IDE integration, integrated debugging support, and support for additional types of tests through the Team Test and Team Suite SKUs.
Q: Do you have to install VSTC on 3-tier config?
A: Due to some nuances regarding CLR builds used by VSTF and and SQL Server 2005, you do have to separate the middle tier and the data tier at this point. That will change before we ship the final version. You can get away with installing the client and data tier on the same box, but we haven’t tested it so it’s not officially supported. That’s how I usually demo the product, though.
Q: When will the documentation be available?
A: Documentation is available with each release of Team System. The documentation team is working in parallel with product development, so we won’t be done until they are. Even then, we expect to provide ongoing documentation updates after Team System ships.
Q: What happens with Visio – is ORM still there? Are the horrible bugs fixed? Any upgrades to the UML version?
A: ORM model will still be in the upcoming release of Visio EA. UML solution will be there as well. Many bugs have been fixed. Also, if you are interested in the class diagram feature, please take a look at Class Designer in Visual Studio 2005. It will be part of all the SKUs from Standard and up.
Q: It seems a lot of people had trouble installing vsts foundation including me. is there a trouble-shooting section or will I have to make a support call to ms?
A: Have you seen the Ask Burton blog? http://blogs.msdn.com/askburton We’ll be publishing a Setup/Installation FAQ soon as well.
Q: Can I actual install the Excel and Project Plugin separate from Visual Studio?
A: The Excel and MS Project add-ins will be delivered as part of the Team Foundation Client SKU. This configuration includes a lightweight version of the Visual Studio shell to surface other core suite features along with the Office extensions.
Q: I see VSTS is built on MSF 4.0. What diffrence are related to MSF 3.1 and when is suggested to use the new “Agile Process” ?
A: MSF 4.0 is a more prescriptive version of the MSF methodology that focuses on the software development lifecycle. We will ship two versions in VSTS: MSF Agile and MSF Formal. MSF Agile is targeted at small teams that that are doing quick turn around projects where the requirements are evolving. MSF Formal is aimed at larger projects that need to have a more rigorous methodology that traces from requirements to deliverables.
Q: Does VSTS support UML 2.0 ?
A: No, VSTS will not support UML 2.0. The UML solution that ships part of Visio will still be supporting UML 1.2.
Q: Does VSTS support UML 2.0 ?
A: To elaborate on Ramesh’s answer, while we do not support UML 2.0 in the box, we are working with partners to provide this functionality. Borland has announced plans to build UML 2.0 designers on top of our Domain Specific Tools language framework. This is the same framework on which the Distributed System Designers and the Class Designer are built.
Q: What will the final deployment architecture look like? Will you be supporting a shared yukon instance?
A: We aren’t planning on supporting a shared yukon instance, however you’ll get a license for yukon along with the Team Foundation Server.
Q: Will you offer a migration path from SourceGear Vault to Hatteras?
A: We are building migration tools for various systems. When we ship V1, we plan to have tools for migrating from SourceSafe and ClearCase. Others will probably be made available as free downloads between the initial release and a subsequent release.
Q: In the Class Designer: Is there any way to add an Interface to an existing class without having to view the code and manually add it in?
A: Yes, you can. You can do that the same way you create an inheritance relationship between classes – click on the inheritance toolbox item, click on the class and drag a line to the inheritance shape on the diagram. This will result in the class implementing the interface. It will also automatically generate stubs for the methods defined in the interface.
Q: How does the internal documentation team at MS use team system (or do they) to stay in sync with the whole team?
A: The Team System User Education team uses current builds of the product to develop documentation. We also work closely with the product development teams to ensure we’re aware of changes and to ensure we’re providing documentation for key usage scenarios. The Team Foundation writers are already using Team Foundation Work Item Tracking to track bugs and this will extend to the rest of the documentation team with our next “dogfood” release.
Q: Do we plan to have a DSL supporting the “Requirements Managment”?
A: the DSLs included in Whidbey include the SDM (system definition model) for expressing application, host, and network/hardware layers, as well as the Class Designer’s DSL for directly describing CLR class libraries. We will not have a DSL for requirements management in Whidbey, but are looking at a number of DSLs for future releases. Even more important, we’re working on a designer-framework SDK which will enable 3rd-party DSL creation.
Q: I wonder why the profiler cannot time each source code line after all those years that it exists. It’s great that it is integrated now, but you always have to guess where exactly the time is going.
A: Yeah, it’s good feedback. As a QA guy, I am on your side of the argument here and will take this back to the team and see if we can blog about it. It’s a tricky balancing act to make sure the overhead of profiling does not alter the performance of what you are profiling the point where the data becomes meaningless, and that may have something to do with it. We do offer custom marks so that you add vsperf.h to your code and use it. For example, if you identify a suspicious block of code using the standard profiling technology and then want to drill deeper it is possible to wrap your suspect code with a custom mark to the collection engine. Getting you a little closer to the desired ability to find specific points inside the block, but still not giving you the exact source code line. Also just to throw something else out – in the IDE we do have “go to source” option that we are hoping will but yes I know that’s not *exactly* what you’re asking either. Just trying not to leave you empty handed…
Q: Will there be a way to do Windows Forms GUI testing on every control that is included by default with the FCL? I use NUnitForms, but it lacks testers for many of the controls in the FCL (hey, it’s free )
A: We provide the ability to generate stubs for unit tests, which would allow you to quickly create starting implementations for your application, including Windows Forms applicatios. In v1, we don’t provide higher-level infrastructure specifically targeted at WinForms controls. We’re investigating further improvements to our support for UI testing for future versions.
Q: Ok, here comes a question about testing. What kind of support for manual UI based testing will be included?
A: Creating a manual test opens the appropriate editor (e.g., Microsoft Word or Notepad) for documenting manual test steps. You can then report test pass/fail and log bugs accordingly.
Q: What are VSTS value related to IBM Atlantic suite ?
A: VSTS has been built from the start with deep integration in mind. The IBM Atlantic suite does not achieve the level of integration customers are asking for and will contiuue to be significantly more difficult to use and administer.
Q: One problem I’ve had with AppCenter Test Server is that it gathers numbers, but doesn’t help diagnose what those numbers mean. Will the profiler and/or load test tools have better explanations of what the numbers mean and suggestions as to how to fix it?
A: Good question. There has been a lot of work put into making sure the data returned from the load test tools is more on the *information* side than the data side, and also there has been a lot of work and discussion with the server and perf guys to pick out the right indicators so that the data you do see is more likely to be the data you need to care about. So I think you’ll be really happy with that. On the Profiler side, we have a “summary” page that shows up when you first render the collected profiling data that does something similar – it shows you the data you are most likely to need to know about and then you can drill down to those functions that have custom visualizations designed to help your brain sift through the numbers better. You still need to use your brain, but there are pains being taken to make sure the information you’re getting is as useful as we can. All that said – if you have any specifics on how to make this better let us know through the blog http://blogs.msdn.com/profiler
Q: Maybe I’m crazy, but I swear I downloaded some videos from MSDN a while back where an MS devl walked through doing GUI Unit testing. Was that in there but dropped since, or was I hallucinating? It sounds like I’ll still need NUnitForms or some equiv…
A: You weren’t hallucinating! Here are some links to profiler video clips, I think there were also some on Channel 9, http://blogs.msdn.com/profiler/archive/2004/05/25/141684.aspx
Q: What reports can we expect to see ship with this product
A: This is not all inclusive but represents a sampling of reports: Build Summary of Tests, Test Failures without Active Bugs, Tests Passing with Active Bugs, Bug Rates, Exit Criteria Status, My bugs, Builds, Build Details report, Work Progress, Load Test Selection report, Load Test Summary report, Load Test Comparison report, Work Item List, Bug List, Code Complete, Dev/QA Bug Counts, Dev/QA Work, Issues, Scenario Stability, Team Productivity, Regressions, Test Effectiveness, Code Coverage Details, Test Result Details
Q: What feature are in VSTS to trace from requirements down to code lines and reverse ?
A: In VSTS, requirements are a type of work item. When you check in code, you associate those changes with the work item that is the requirement. You can then trace from the requirement to the code that was changed and vice-versa.
Q: To make sure I undertand, if we use perforce for our source control, we will be able to use this with VSTS? If so, at beta1?
A: You can use any source control system you would like within VS2005. The integration features that make VSTS Source Control so cool won’t be available with Perforce without somebody implementing an analogous integration. The extensibility mechanisms are all there and we hope to see Perforce and/or the communitytake advantage of them.
Q: How can TFS project managment integrate with an EPM solution (MS PS 2003) when TFS is in a non-trusted dev forest and EPM is in the production forest?
A: Integration with MS PS 2003 is achieved through client-side integration in this release. Client machines that can access the EPM server will be able to use MS Project integration features.
Q: Does VTST provides time tracking features for work items?
A: As I understand it, the work item type definitions (defined by XML schema) that ship in the box with MSF Agile and MSF Formal do not include time tracking, but you can extend the schema to add fields for capturing such information.
Q: We need to stay with .NET 1.1, but are very unsatisfied with Visual Source Safe. Can we use the Team System client to manage projects under development in VS.NET2003? Will the Solutions and Project files get handled correctly?
A: Unfortunately, VSTS Source Control doesn’t provide an integration with VS.NET2003. We’re leveraging some new features in the VS2005 IDE to provide a richer experience at the cost of this integration. We’re hoping that people in the community will take it on themselves to leverage the object model to create a simple MSSCCI plugin to enable this scenario. You interested?
A: If you are looking to migrate from VSS to the new source control in VSTS, you would need to use Team Foundation server, not client bits. You can store Pre-VS2005 projects, but will need to use the command line interface to check in/out as we will not have integration with VS2003
Q: Can I add customized fields refered to work items and put it on the work items web form ?
A: No Web interface is currently planned for v1. However, partners can create ASP.NET pages that use the Work Item Tracking public API to create a browser-based Web interface for managing work items.
Q: Where I can find resource about VSTS such books, more exaustive videos or detailed documentation ?
A: http://msdn.microsoft.com/teamsystem – as such content becomes available, we’ll be linking to it from there. The most detailed, Microsoft documentation will appear in the MSDN Library.
Q: How can we use team system to extend our bug reporting system to our external beta testers?
A: Two ideas for you: 1) provide the Team Foundation Client to each of your external beta testers. 2) create a simple web interface that plugs into our public work item tracking API.
Q: I am getting confused about the different SKUs and roles — does the SKU of VS.NET limit the role one can play in VSTS?
A: There are 4 options for which client SKU to use – MSDN Universal subscribers get to choose from one of the 3 role-focused SKU’s (Team Architect, Team Developer, Team Tester), each of which contains the components focused on that role. For an additional cost (pricing hasn’t been set yet), you can optionally choose the Team Suite SKU which contains the functionality of all 3. http://www.3leaf.com/wiki/default.aspx/Burton.RoleBasedSKU?diff=y
Q: How can integrate the VSTS bug tracking system with the MS CRM service area ?
A: There are several levels of integration possible. But the infrastructure supports scenarios, like submitting a work item from a CRM service request, and maintaining links, and navigation. This does not come out-of-the-box, however.
Q: Are you going to ship a better mere/diff tool than with VSS?
A: We’re going to be shipping 2 merge/diff tools. The first is the tool that is in VSS, which has some enhancements in VS2005 to make it easier to use. The second is a new tool for XML diff/merge. Alternatively, you can configure any tool to be invoked by the source control system based on file extensions.
Q: Within the sharepont portal for VSTS, will a webpart be available to update Work Items without having to utilize the Team Foundation Client SKU? Essentially I want outside users to be able to enter/update bug work items without requiring them to use TFC..
A: We will be providing web parts that access the work item tracking. This was cut, but we are trying hard to get it back into V1. If not V1, then shortly thereafter.
A: Out of the box, there will not be a web interface to our work item tracking system. We are working on alternatives since this is clearly a key feature that many customers are asking for.
Q: Is there going to be integration between the Unit Tests / Bug Traacking / Etc and MS Project. IE can’t complete an item until all the tests are passed.
A: Yes, we’ll provide the ability to set check-in policy, including test policy requiring certain (or all) tests to pass prior to check-in. You’ll also be able to create a bug/work-item directly from a test result, and associate check-ins with existing work items.
Q: What support does VSTS have for deploying software to ALPHA, BETA, and Prodction environments?? Example: I have 3 issues being tested in Alpha and only 2 pass. How does VSTS help us just roll the 2 issues that pass up to Beta?? Thanks
A: VSTS doesn’t provide a deployment solution, but we have a great branching and merging model that can address your question. Essentially, in source control you maintain a branch for each deployment environment. New changes go into the development environment and are associated with the work item (feature, requirement, bug, etc.) that they address. When you’re ready to promote that work item, you trace it back to the checkin (we call it a changeset) that is associated with it and merge that individual changeset to the next branch in the promotion level. You then use your application specific deployment mechanism to push the source from that branch out into the environment.
Q: Is MS going to eat its own dogfood and use this product?
A: Ah…dogfooding…a topic near and dear to my heart! We certainly use our tools to build our tools. For instance, we’ve been using our source control and work item tracking for approximately 6 months now. We’re currently expanding the usage of these components to ensure that we have the scale for larger teams.









Dave Bost is a Technical Evangelist for Microsoft and co-host of the Thirsty Developer Podcast.